Naw it’s not one sided, you just didn’t hear about the guy who got banned for accusing 4 people of being CIA agents.

Should not be surprised you’re a rad one, violet08!

I think another bit of context is that it was used as sort of Palestinian flag stand-in emoji when there wasn’t a Palestinian flag emoji

Nebula, means tv, and dropout =/ none will be the next YouTube but it’s nice to have options I guess

I don’t think voting for the democrats means I agree with them, I think it means the bad parts are a trade-off I’m willing to make for the good parts. And right now it’s not.

My non-vote can also make it a shade less likely the democrats will win without changing. If that makes it a shade more likely they’ll change, great, because my vote for them wouldn’t make it a shade more likely they’d win (again, living in a state where my vote doesn’t count). What my vote does is rob them of an infinitesimal piece of legitimacy, and voting for them would grant them that infinitesimal piece of legitimacy. If you want to make a difference, it’s not me you should be talking to, it’s only folks in swing states you should be worried about. If my vote counted I might find your points more compelling. And before you say “well that’s very nuanced and you shouldn’t be telling people not to vote for democrats” I’m not saying that; it’s you people calling us out! Saying we’re bad people for not acquiescing to this trade off of “if you say yes to arming a genocide, maybe we can have a little less fascism at home.”

As it is, I hope the democrats win, but importantly if they win without changing, I hope they win with the lowest turnout in history. I hope it’s a near thing. I hope they’re scared they’ll lose again next time if they keep up this bullshit of chasing the republicans into more and more extreme right wing politics (hell, while we’re hoping, I hope they start nationalizing the necessities of life and guillotining billionaires starting with the pedophiles).

Or else I hope grassroots organizing outside the party is integral to their success, and the democrats become beholden to organizations that represent the people. That’d be neat. Anyway, voting for the democrats works against those goals. The democrats winning in a landslide with a clear mandate to get back to “business as usual,” where business as usual is rounding up immigrants and murdering Palestinians is still very bad.

I really wanted to but couldn’t get it to work; it seems awesome! For some reason I couldn’t get my old MacBook to recognize it as bootable. I should try again sometime.

I just did this with a 2010 MacBook Pro (only 8gb of ram) and I can’t tell you how happy I am about it.

I mean it sounds like you think they’re in an impossible place…if they arm a genocide, they’ll lose because us crazy leftists won’t vote for them. But if they don’t arm a genocide they’ll lose because those crazy zionists won’t vote for them. I think you’re wrong about that, that they would win if they kicked the zionists out, but that’s speculation on my part. They could make the election a referendum on genocide and I really think that would be a winning position. They might actually have to pick between decent people and zionists. I like to think there are more of us than them, but hey, maybe I’m just an optimist.

But say you’re right, and they really are stuck between impossible choices…if each choice is impossible, how in the hell can it be so bad for me to make one of those choices?

I also absolutely don’t trust “dog whistles for the left,” Obama wasn’t sending a dog whistle when he said “I’ll close guantanamo bay” or “I’ll create a public option for healthcare.” Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me. I was so STOKED for Obama; he talked progressive but practical. I didn’t like everything he said but if he had followed through on the big progressive promises, the world would be a different place (and the democrats would be a different party). If they don’t burn the bridges, they’re not serious.

I hope you’re right man. I hope they win, I hope they change, I hope things get better. But I aint holding my breath. I expect when they win they’ll be pleased to keep most of the fascist powers trump has given precedent for. I expect they’ll roll a few things back and put a more polite face on it and get back to rounding up immigrants and funding the genocide of Palestinians. And frankly, that’s not good enough; I’d rather not even give my worthless token support to that.

Like I said, I’m not looking for perfection, I’m looking for the absolute minimum. 1% towards decency. If they did the only thing they could do in respect of Palestine that is not absolutely monstrous (i.e. stop military aid to israel), I’d be out working my ass off to get them elected, despite all my many other deep problems with them. And if they announced it and alienated their zionist donors I’d know they were serious about it. None of this “well we have some concerns” while continuing to ship them more guns than they can reasonably find people to shoot.

Yeah, I can see that. As a principle, I agree with it, but I’ll put it behind (or maybe on-par with) the principle of identify and embarass fascists at every opportunity.

I see your point, though I don’t think there are many people who would see this and think “oh wow, he did a nazi salute? Oh…he didn’t? Well now I don’t trust the people saying he’s a fascist.” If a person can’t see his actions and words from what they are I don’t think we’re winning them over anyway.

I agree with all that, I guess I just don’t see it as a problem!

He’s a dick but also a fascist so…I don’t know what’s disingenuous about it?

Boy, the democrats really should get serious then.

Again, I don’t care as much about what’s said as I do about who funds it. Maybe you’re right, and there actually is a significant difference in how may people get killed. But obviously I don’t think so, at least enough to not vote for Kamala and to have a days long conversation defending that choice.

You don’t hold someone in check by giving them $18 billion worth of guns.

Why do you think the Democrats would have pushed back? I don’t believe there’s any factual basis for that. I don’t believe they’ve even whispered a word about slowing military aid. Biden did way more to openly encourage genocide than trump has so…I don’t really understand what you mean.

Amen man, I think the democrats should do everything they can to fight like hell and beat the fascists. Including not arming a genocide (which of course, they should do for more reasons than just winning the US elections).

I absolutely cannot comprehend how them not doing that is acceptable to you, but me not voting for them is not acceptable to you lol…like they’re clearly the moral agent here. All I can do is whine about it, lodge my non-vote and get back to my life. This is their fuckin job. They have unimaginable resources to figure this out, but sure I guess fuck me for not taking my one in two hundred million part in the decision of which party of genocidal maniacs is in charge; sweet or bitter.

No, they’re not as bad, by about the same amount as Ralph is not as bad as Dirk. It doesn’t matter which you choose, they’re gonna kill a kid. It doesn’t matter whether you vote for democrats or not, tens of thousands of Palestinians will be slaughtered using our tax dollars.

I don’t know how else to put it. All the bad things that are worse under republicans are dwarfed by Palestine. Ice has killed…what, a handful of protestors and a few dozen kidnappees? It’s awful of course, but a rounding error on Palestine.

Maybe that extra rounding error of evil could have been avoided if leftists had been willing to acquiesce to the rest of it…maybe. But it definitely would have been avoided if the democrats had changed, and so would so much else.

You seem to be able to accept unquestioningly that the democrats won’t stop arming a genocide (I don’t, they need to change or else the US is fucked, even if they win. Best we can hope for then is a rapid collapse). I think you should also accept that lots of people will not vote to arm a genocide.

That’s your point, my point is the democrats and republicans are both fascists and it doesn’t matter that much which you choose. Voting for the “less bad” fascist to kill the older kid isn’t working “effectively” against the fascists.

Ok, I’m gonna keep my focus and ire on the fascists. I’ll leave you to spend time and energy backseat driving Sophie’s choice.

You gotta be trolling me man. You’re gonna blame Sophie?

I’m really not demanding perfection. Like look I’d love to see all kinds of stuff I think are no-brainers, good policy, whatever. If the Democrats tomorrow said “no more arms to Israel” I’d still have a million and one complaints…no question they’re not perfect. That’s not perfection that’s like…minimal human decency. They can keep funding ICE keep carrying out regime change wars keep fucking everyone over on healthcare and the environment and labor rights and all that. But arming israel? No; come on. That’s not “demanding perfection”

IDK, you’ve obviously got a lot more faith in them than I do. Obama didn’t even say “I’m gonna drone strike anyone I want anywhere in the world, sovereignty be damned,” but he did it. Biden and hillary both voted to invade Iraq. So when Democrats say “I’ll do anything necessary to stop Iran” I don’t put anything past them.

And yeah, that’s the gross behavior I’m talking about. Like…that video is gross, but it’s less bad than any of the many thousands of bombs we’ve provided. I don’t think the nastiness and the policy are related to each other.