Wait, you imagine that there must be a guy forced into dangerous situations against their will and that this society is better because it forces that guy to exist?
What happens is that different people have different options. For some people, they have options that are way better than mining. For some other people, the other options might not be as appealing because they might pay less or whatever. That is the market.
If nobody wants to be a miner, the pay/conditions of mining should go up enough so that there is someone that prefers mining over what they’re currently doing.
This encourages people to do jobs that are unappealing.
On the other side, if you are a bad fiction writer, you’re probably not earning enough money to survive. That’s because you’re spending resources but you’re not calming many people’s desires, so you’ll probably take up a job that you like less but pays way more, and is probably more healthy for the community.
Nobody is forcing them. But if those jobs were not done, we wouldn’t have the society we have today. Mining safety gear will probably not have been invented in an anarchy society. Water treatment plants wouldn’t either. All those things we have today is because we used our resources way more efficiently than “go do whatever you want, the guy over there that loves farming and the guy over there that loves cooking will keep you fed”.
If all that stands between me and the beginning of a society with no oppression is strapping some gear on and doing some manual labor, then fuck it gimme a pickaxe I’m going down there.
Am I suited for it? Absolutely the fuck not, but I’m willing, and I’m sure many others are as well, especially if they know that whatever happens, their safety and health comes before profit, and they’ll always come back to a good place. I could certainly stand working until things begin to hurt if I knew every bit I dug up would do good.
Yeah that’s cool. You and sewage guy will make a great duo. But the 5 dudes over there organized themselves, acquired a weapon and killed the other guy. They’re waiting for you to come out of the mine with all those resources and you don’t even know it.
Anarchism is the absence of hierarchy, not organization. The means of the people to use force against violent attempts at theft for personal gain are neither eliminated nor lessened.
You seem to be consistently misunderstanding me. Did you seriously think what I meant was “me and this sewage guy are gonna singlehandedly fight off 5 armed men”? That’s fucking absurd. What I actually meant was we would obviously have armed guards protecting valuables vulnerable to theft, like any other organized society.
No. The problem is that what people want is not the same as what the people need.
The central problem of economics is that humans have infinite desires, which need resources to be met, and resources are finite. Therefore, we should aim to efficiently allocate our resources to meet the most of our desires.
If in a population of 1000, there are 100 fiction writers, you’re gone get more fiction books than you can read, and you’re probably die of hunger, because now the other 900 have to sustain the 100 writers for basically no value. Since probably most people will only want to read the top 1-2 that are actually good.
If the other 99-98 other writers don’t have any pressure to change careers because the community provides for them, why would they? The thing they want to do most is writing!
And all that is assuming such a civilization exists. From my PoV, dreaming about anarchism makes no sense. Our world was born anarchic. There were no CEOs nor governments. And the people that lived in that world rapidly formed societies that had hierarchies, because that is the most efficient way.
The natural consequence of anarchy is non-anarchy. Anarchy is not a final state, it’s transitory. Anarchy is not a stable state.
Just like you can try mixing water and oil all you want, the moment you stop stirring, they will separate.
The only way to keep a non-stable state is by force. That is, if you want anarchy, there must be someone enforcing that there be anarchy. And if that’s the case, then it’s no longer anarchy, since there is a ruler.
When i say that there were sages in tribes, I don’t mean that there was just a wise guy. I mean that an elder would basically rule the tribe, because everyone would ask him for advice, and there could be consequences if that “advice” wasn’t followed.
Wait till you hear about the anarchist that loves going into the mines with toxic gases and all to get the resources for the sewage maintainer guy.
Wait, you imagine that there must be a guy forced into dangerous situations against their will and that this society is better because it forces that guy to exist?
What happens is that different people have different options. For some people, they have options that are way better than mining. For some other people, the other options might not be as appealing because they might pay less or whatever. That is the market.
If nobody wants to be a miner, the pay/conditions of mining should go up enough so that there is someone that prefers mining over what they’re currently doing.
This encourages people to do jobs that are unappealing.
On the other side, if you are a bad fiction writer, you’re probably not earning enough money to survive. That’s because you’re spending resources but you’re not calming many people’s desires, so you’ll probably take up a job that you like less but pays way more, and is probably more healthy for the community.
Nobody is forcing them. But if those jobs were not done, we wouldn’t have the society we have today. Mining safety gear will probably not have been invented in an anarchy society. Water treatment plants wouldn’t either. All those things we have today is because we used our resources way more efficiently than “go do whatever you want, the guy over there that loves farming and the guy over there that loves cooking will keep you fed”.
If it’s necessary, someone will do it. If that can’t be counted on, we’re kinda fucked.
Will you? Because I know I won’t
If all that stands between me and the beginning of a society with no oppression is strapping some gear on and doing some manual labor, then fuck it gimme a pickaxe I’m going down there.
Am I suited for it? Absolutely the fuck not, but I’m willing, and I’m sure many others are as well, especially if they know that whatever happens, their safety and health comes before profit, and they’ll always come back to a good place. I could certainly stand working until things begin to hurt if I knew every bit I dug up would do good.
Yeah that’s cool. You and sewage guy will make a great duo. But the 5 dudes over there organized themselves, acquired a weapon and killed the other guy. They’re waiting for you to come out of the mine with all those resources and you don’t even know it.
Is that freedom from oppression?
Anarchism is the absence of hierarchy, not organization. The means of the people to use force against violent attempts at theft for personal gain are neither eliminated nor lessened.
So you’re saying that you and sewage treatment plant guy will successfully defend against 5 armed men that ambushed you while you were working?
Remember: this is not an action film, this is real life we’re talking about.
You seem to be consistently misunderstanding me. Did you seriously think what I meant was “me and this sewage guy are gonna singlehandedly fight off 5 armed men”? That’s fucking absurd. What I actually meant was we would obviously have armed guards protecting valuables vulnerable to theft, like any other organized society.
Well. You could’ve said that if you wanted to say that.
Now it’s not 5 dudes. Your land is valuable and the neighbouring state wants to invade you. How do you stop it?
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Yeah, now you just need someone that has a passion for manufacturing safety gear!
You think the issue with non authoritarian collectivization is that people don’t like making things?…
No. The problem is that what people want is not the same as what the people need.
The central problem of economics is that humans have infinite desires, which need resources to be met, and resources are finite. Therefore, we should aim to efficiently allocate our resources to meet the most of our desires.
If in a population of 1000, there are 100 fiction writers, you’re gone get more fiction books than you can read, and you’re probably die of hunger, because now the other 900 have to sustain the 100 writers for basically no value. Since probably most people will only want to read the top 1-2 that are actually good.
If the other 99-98 other writers don’t have any pressure to change careers because the community provides for them, why would they? The thing they want to do most is writing!
And all that is assuming such a civilization exists. From my PoV, dreaming about anarchism makes no sense. Our world was born anarchic. There were no CEOs nor governments. And the people that lived in that world rapidly formed societies that had hierarchies, because that is the most efficient way.
The natural consequence of anarchy is non-anarchy. Anarchy is not a final state, it’s transitory. Anarchy is not a stable state.
Just like you can try mixing water and oil all you want, the moment you stop stirring, they will separate.
The only way to keep a non-stable state is by force. That is, if you want anarchy, there must be someone enforcing that there be anarchy. And if that’s the case, then it’s no longer anarchy, since there is a ruler.
Rapidly formed hierarchies huh? miiight wanna read about early human history.
Hundreds of thousands of years passed before tyrants became the norm
You don’t need tyrants for hierarchies. Tribes had sages and leaders.
Hierarchy is not when you are convinced someone is wise lol. Please read a book
When i say that there were sages in tribes, I don’t mean that there was just a wise guy. I mean that an elder would basically rule the tribe, because everyone would ask him for advice, and there could be consequences if that “advice” wasn’t followed.